Friday, August 05, 2005

A Conversation With The Critic

This article is from a conversation that I had with a non-believer. His statements are underlined

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Who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that: I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah

1. First we have to define what "god" is.

God has declared Himself. That is what THE HOLY BIBLE is all about. The burden of proof is upon you, the person who willfully rejects this knowledge to disprove: recorded history - witnesses such as Paul and Josephus - archeology - anthropology - ethnology - artifacts – geography: Jerusalem and Israel. The Jew.

2. God is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future. Is this what you believe? For the sake of argument, I'll answer "yes, I agree" for you.

TRUE. We agree here. You say, "for the sake of argument". Yet, you do not agree with this. If this is so, you must present your evidence or "strong argument". You have not done this as of yet.

3. God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity. This is how the bible puts it, anyway, and the bible is reported to be the perfect and true word of "god".

Partially truth. The Bible does not declare this as you have stated. You are adding to it [your] words and thoughts without proper interpretation. Let's take at look at your statements:

4. God's creation was originally perfect...

TRUE.

5. but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world.

FALSE. Only Adam and Eve brought imperfection.

6. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness.

FALSE. Suffering is not because we are sinful. Suffering is because this world is not perfect. You have turned around what the bible declares: This means: Adam fell, then sin (unbelief) caused the creation to fall. Therefore, the creation is (has become) tainted. We do not suffer because we are sinful. We are sinful to start. Suffering comes from the creation being not perfect. Simple really. Your (implication) is reversed that of what the Bible claims. All are declared, sinners.

7. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven...

TRUE.

8. but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake.

FALSE. We suffer because the creation is not perfect.

9. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

FALSE. The question is turned around. The question should be asked: "Why should God even save any man". If you understand that, then you would understand why 'good' people will go to hell.

10. This is how the bible puts it, anyway, and the bible is reported to be the perfect and true word of "god".

FALSE. The Bible says that any man that wants and desires to accept the gift of forgiveness must simply ask God. There is no demand other than your heart set on wanting to be forgiven for your sin. Are you without sin? This question is stated as a declaration: Are [you] perfect?

11. One verse you are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools.

FALSE. Fools are those who reject sound advice, failing to check the evidence. NONE is without excuse. ALL are guilty of DEATH (Spiritual).

12. Yet the above concepts of "god" are completely incompatible...

TRUE. The reason you have arrived at this paradox, incompatible through your reasoning, is because you have failed to demonstrate the proper interpretation of the words you are rejecting. God's word does not work this way. A paradox in your incompatibility will always be revealed. Truth is: SELF-REVEALING.

Example:
a. God's word (truth)
b. Your interpretation (non-truth)
c. Truth is self-revealing (contradiction)

Contradiction cannot be truth. Your premise is wrong, which makes your statement wrong, which you have just agreed to; "...it is incompatible."

You will find there are many self-revealing truths from the Biblical record, with 66 Books to discover and study. This is why the Bible is indeed a revolutionary Book. No other Book has matched what the Bible has accomplished through the course of near some 4,000 years.

13. and reveal the impossibility of all of them being held by the same being at the same time.

This is a statement from an incorrect premise. Yes, it would seem to be justified based on the false premise. However, the truth you have claimed cannot reconcile its own statement. You have proved your own fallacy, from your argument. Truth cannot lie.

14. There is no foolishness in denying the impossible.

TRUE. This is a justified statement according to the Bible. It is justified to 'question' when seeking truth. This is called, sincerity.

The apostle Thomas. We see why he was chosen, because he doubted. A man chosen by Jesus. The Gospel of John presents Jesus' deity; He is God John 20:24-28

15. Foolishness is worshipping an impossible God.

TRUE. This is self-revealing. Your logic has contradicted truth of the Biblical record clearly demonstrated though this essay. You have presented only a statement. You have not presented your argument but have now change the subject (a fallacy) which was stated from the first question: "first we must define what is god is..."

It is obvious we cannot worship the god you have presented, This is a triune revelation. We agree! You have presented a paradox. Yet your paradox is based from our truth.

16. God is supposed to be perfect.

TRUE. God has claimed perfection.

17. If something is perfect, it is complete -- it does not need anything else.

TRUE.

18. We human beings do things because we try to find perfection imperfectly.

TRUE.

19. If "god" is perfect, there can be no imperfection.

TRUE.

20. There is nothing he needs

TRUE.

21. nothing he desires

FALSE. He created man, because He desired fellowship.

22. and nothing he must or will do.

Are you now speaking for God? If so, then you must clarify what you mean by this statement.

23. A perfect creator "god" is an impossibility.

Again, this is only a statement, without factual evidence or empirical evidence. If you believe this, how do you come to this conclusion?

24. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that this perfect "god" did create the universe.

There is no argument. God declared he created everything. For you to "suppose" he did not, then you must present your evidence of the 'universe' and its origins.

Question: Has the universe always existed? If so, how do you know this?

25. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in his image.

TRUE.

26. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

TRUE.

27. What kind of nonsense is that?

This is only a statement, no factual evidence, subjective.

28. A "perfect god" created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans!

TRUE.

29. The ultimate source of imperfection is this creator, this "god".

Again, this is only a statement. You must demonstrate why this is so.

30. What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect

TRUE. Reason: Contradiction and unnecessary.

31. so humans must have been created IMPERFECTLY.

FALSE. God said it was VERY GOOD(perfect).

32. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect

WHY? Again, this is only a statement based on the above contradiction, a Fallacy.

The question should be asked: Why would a perfect God create anything imperfect. Slightly different than your statement.

EXPLAINATION: What is perfect? This is a reference to God. You agreed he is all powerful. Therefore, he is able to create anything, even the old Fallacy of: Can God create a rock to big to carry? This question is a false question. The reason is logical. Why would he, it makes no sense.

30. What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect

TRUE. Example: Would you build a house, with a roof so heavy that it would collapse when you have finished?

33. so the biblical "god" MUST be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans!

This is a fallacy based upon your own statements, void of merit and not substantiated and this is how you have come to this conclusion. Yet so far, you have offered only opinion and nothing of fact; logical-empirical-reasonable-scientific, etc. Only theory based from a false premise to start.

34. A PERFECT "god" who creates imperfect humans is impossible!

TRUE. Clarification: Although it is not impossible but it would be; unnecessary, undesirable, not productive, etc.

Example: Will you name anything that man creates, intentionally, to be imperfect? Would General Motors design cars that always steer to the right for example..

35. The only objection to this argument that I've heard involves the concept of "freewill". A being must have freewill to be happy.

FALSE. Freewill is not about happy (feelings) Only Decision; Choice.

36. Their omnibenevolent "god" did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness.

FALSE. Freewill is decision, choice, not emotions. If He is "ominbenevolent" then it is reasonable to assume YOUR statement: ALL KNOWING means, he foresaw the FALL of MAN and provided an escape for mankind. This is what the Biblical claims.

37. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into his originally perfect universe.

TRUE. But you are not including a major portion of scripture. They did it with an adversary (Satan) that TEMPTED them. This adversary lied to them and they believed. They made a choice. They demonstrated freewill. It is apparent this truth is revealed within its own logic. They did not know EVIL (wrong) prior only good.

38. God had no control over this decision

FALSE. God gave them CHOICE, FREEWILL.

39. so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not him.

TRUE. There was blame, yes, but it was Adam that blamed Eve. God forewarned of the consequences before they chose to eat of the tree. God stands Just.

40. Here is why that argument is weak.

So far there is no argument, only Fallacy. You try to prove, from a book that you reject, your foundation of truth, from the book that you reject. This is called a Fallacy and cannot be a true argument.

41. First, if "god" is omnipotent

FALSE. [IF] is subjective. God says He is. You claim [IF] This is a subjective and unsubstantiated. (see below examples of IF).

42. then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false.

TRUE. Freewill is CHOICE. The usage of [then] is based from your premise which is Fallacious to begin with. Your method is correct, but your premise is wrong. You have proved your own argument, in contrast. That is, you have proved by your own reasoning that, 'this is not possible'.

Indeed, truth cannot lie and truth will always prevail. Even in a fallacy if studied long enough. This is called a Diatribe. Now we can see the importance of these lengthy debates. Debate proves a STRONG ARGUMENT for TRUTH.

43. If "god" could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that beings without freewill may experience happiness.

Possible this can be true. However, this is only conjecture and mainly this is false reasoning, as you have clearly demonstrated. The biblical record does not state this in any way or form, nor eludes to this type of suggestion, although it may be possible. The word [if] is what is important.

Again, this is a Fallacious argument because you have only offered conjecture (theory, suggestion) on your part and this has nothing to do with the subject. The reason my statement to you is correct is as follows:

IF GOD: Is subjective thought not based on fact.

Example:
.....If the sun were blue, then we would not need sunglasses.
.....If Dolphins had wings, then they could fly.
.....If we could travel by sound, we could reach our destination quicker.

And forever it goes.

44. Perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could.

TRUE to your subjective thought. FALSE to the Facts.

Example: What is considered a [perfect robot]?

45. A perfect and omnipotent "god" who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

TRUE and FALSE: True because as repeatedly stated, you have proved your own contradiction, as evidence of your truth. THIS IS A FALLACY. Humans create there own problems for multitudes of reasons.

46. Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, this "god" could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between MANY GOOD AND DIFFERENT OPTIONS!

TRUE. In the Biblical record this is called 'the mystery of iniquity'. It is obvious through the scriptural record that SIN started in heaven first, then earth second. However, in the justification of your theory this cannot be correct by reason of exclusion.

LOGICAL REASONING: If, as you suggest, God did choose this option, then there is no need for FREEWILL. Freewill would be rendered useless and unnecessary. Again, your method is correct but your premise is wrong. Therefore, you are wrong not by my authority, but by your own statements.

47. Third, "god" supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions.

FALSE. God is omnipotent. There is no need for Freewill on His behalf. He is freewill, which is choice and by choice, (He chooses for example: Perfection.) God is perfect.

This is a self-redundant question. Example: TRUE, God has made no imperfect decisions.

48. If humans are miniature images of "god", our decisions should likewise be perfect.

[If humans] is subjective and not what is stated as true. [Our decisions] based on your method is correct, but you have contradicted yourself. Therefore your reasoning is false. Truth has not been discovered.

Example: If God were a miniature human, then his decisions would be like ours.

49. The occupants of heaven

FALSE. There are no occupants in heaven. We all arrive together. However the Biblical record is clear; dead to the physical in the presence of the Lord, or in Hell. One or the other. We do have a resurrection which is another event.

50. who presumably must have freewill to be happy

FALSE: FREEWILL is CHOICE not FEELINGS, emotion...

51. will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. (Of course, Rev. 12:7 tells us of a war in heaven!)The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

FALSE: God said He created all things perfect. He also stated that Lucifer rebelled, an ongoing event to this very day, against Him.

This demonstrates that angels have freewill as well, as declared from the Biblical record and that heaven was corrupted. The Biblical record is also clear, that there will be a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH.

52. This creator is supposedly omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans.

TRUE.

53. He heard the agonizing screams of the "damned".

FALSE. He heard of the cry of the JEW in bondage in Egypt.
TRUE. He knew the (FALL of MANKIND)and offered SALVATION. This is the basic premise of the Biblical record.

God's word declares that HELL was made for the ANGELS and not for man.

54. Surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering.

FALSE. Then we have no freewill. Therefore, we would be in bondage and in slavery to a god that forces us to worship him, without knowing GOOD or EVIL, RIGHT from WRONG.

This is a repeating contradiction. You must realize this contradiction, based on your own statements which cannot be reconciled. This is your paradox.

55. A PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE being who creates beings which he KNOWS are doomed to suffer is impossible.

FALSE. God has designed a way for men to escape Death. He has offered the Biblical record to declare what he wants, who we are, what has been provided for us. This is love. This is freewill in making a CHOICE FOR GOD not forced to slavery and bondage of FORCED LOVE.

56. This creator is supposedly perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for the finite sin of not knowing right from wrong BEFORE knowing what good and evil were.

FALSE. The Biblical record is clear. All have sinned. SALVATION has been given to mankind as a FREE GIFT. (GRACE and MERCY) Nothing is needed and all has been provided. As any good Father would do for his children.

57. Does a limited offense justify unlimited punishment?

FALSE: The question is turned around. Why should God save any man to begin with. Unlimited punishment is a FREEWILL choice.

58. God's sentencing of imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for any mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely unjust.

FALSE. GOD has provided Salvation. Every man and woman shall make their own, freewill choice.

59. The absurdity of this infinite punishment appears even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of the human's imperfection is the "god" who created them!

Indeed absurd. Your logic even confirms this. Truth, according to your logic, has only been confirmed as "ABSURD." Indeed, why would God create this? Another Triune Revelation. Indeed, it contradicts the beginning of the Biblical record. as truth always starts, from the beginning.

IN THE BEGINNING...... GOD SAID THAT, CREATION WAS VERY GOOD.

Even evolution has a beginning, according to scholars, some 200,000,000 years ago. (give or take a few million.) This is a long long time to get lost in. This is designed deception and confusion. This is spiritual wickedness, imparted into human thought, logical reasoning and behavior.

60. A PERFECTLY JUST "god" who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

TRUE. By reason of logic: Another Triune revelation.
FALSE. The Biblical record is clear and this is why it has been given to us. People choose their own destination in eternity. God has told us of what is to come and has given everything we need to escape this choice. Therefore, as God has declared: REPENT and BE SAVED.

61. Think of all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ.

HAVE YOU HEARD OF JESUS CHRIST, is THE QUESTION?

EXAMPLE: You qualify this by "remote". Nothing is remote. Have you ever seen an Aborigine with a Coca-cola t-shirt on?

ALL have come to the knowledge of God. He has declared it (Romans chapter 1). That IF they were far removed, then He has revealed Himself to them personally, through experience and physical revelation: i.e.; Nature, Life, Conscience, etc.

62. Consider the people who have kept the non-christian religion of their parents as they had been taught to do since birth.

TRUE. This is the story of 1SAM 15.

63. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.

TRUE. THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. (Romans chapter 1)

64. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned.

TRUE.

65. No just "god" would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

FALSE. This is not the Biblical record. It is the story of other religions. However, mankind has a standard to judge himself by, this is called the Bible. Man has freewill, he can and does make his own choices. You make choices everyday.

66. The bible is supposedly the creator's perfect word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell.

TRUE.

67. How wonderful and kind of this "god" to provide us with this means for overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible!

FALSE. You have not proved this. The Bible is clear, Lucifer first, man afterward. The entire creation fell. It is now corrupt, no longer in a state of perfection.

You state these words in a condescending manner, which suggests, from the Biblical truth, that this is what is in your heart.

THIS IS WHY MAN CANNOT BE THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE, LET ALONE OFFER PEACE TO THIS WORLD. IT IS A FUTILE ATTEMPT AND WILL ONLY COME ABOUT BY SATAN, WHOM THE JEWS WILL GLADLY ACCEPT, AS THEIR MESSIAH, THEN THE WORLD WILL FOLLOW, AND THE MAN OF INIQUITY WILL BE REVEALED, AS PROPHECY HAS FORETOLD.

Example: Take a glass of water, then add to it a microscopic organism, say SMALL POX. Is the water still pure?

GOD SAID IT WAS VERY GOOD. Satan, then Man destroyed the creation. Therefore BOTH are responsible. Again the question is: Why would God save any man?

68. The all-powerful "god" could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure

TRUE.

69. Then there is no need for freewill, and this is forced love because we would be unable to know RIGHT from WRONG and GOOD from EVIL.

I have stated this in your question #54 already YOU WILL LOVE ME! I HAVE CREATED YOU TO LOVE ME. FORCED LOVE. Even in human logic this is absurd. You have finally realized this in YOUR OWN LOGIC, as demonstrated. This again is self-revealing, as stated clearly throughout this essay and that you have just verified as truth.

70. but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable mixture of books called the bible

TRUE. However, it is very easy to understand the basic premise of the Bible: SIN and SALVATION.

EXAMPLE: Have you taught your Toddler Physics?

71. as a means for avoiding the hell which HE HAS PREPARED FOR US!

FALSE. God said he created HELL for the Angels, not MEN.

72. The perfect "god" has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work

FALSE. The only thing found imperfect is your logic.

73. written in the imperfect language of imperfect man

This is a Fallacy and a Triune Revelation:

Example: Imperfect man, uses imperfect language, and out of this comes a perfect record. Amazing! THIS IS THE POWER OF THE WORD OF GOD.

74. translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man

TRUE and FALSE. The author of the Bible is, The Holy Spirit. Through men (much like this essay). This is why it is called INSPIRED. The question we just discussed and is a repeating question is easily rejected by the apparent contradiction(s).

You must present the evidence of this [vote] you have mentioned.

75. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean

TRUE. But not entirely. The Bible offers 2 simple premises. SIN and SALVATION. There is not much to discern, nor argue over.

76. since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigma.

A TRIUNE REVELATION and a paradox from your truth, as you cannot reconcile your truth. PROVE the contradictions. You have not.

Enigma is subjective reasoning not pertaining to the subject matter. Only conjecture, not based in fact, THEORY.

77. And yet the perfect "god" expects the imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us.

Indeed, you are in a paradox. You are in the Zen Masters "Don't Know mind", which is empty and seeks nothing, as to commune with God. Yet you cannot see God because you have a "Don't Know mind". That is a true paradox!

"Don't know mind" is a false rationalization for belief in, what is truth. This is your self-repeating paradox that you have revealed to yourself, in your own logic from our truth. Truth cannot lie. Again, you have only presented contradiction.

78. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful "god" would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

TRUE. He has, it is called, the creation and The Bible. The Universe you live in with an instruction book to follow.

79. One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections. For example, Jesus' earthly lineage: Is it through Solomon or his brother Nathan?

Jesus' lineage is historical fact: From Joseph's family (Solomon) and from Mary's family (NAthan). Two Sons of David, the King of Israel. This is another Triune Revelation demonstrated through progressive revelation. A FACT OF HISTORY

This true because, through two seprate people, from the same father, comes the Messiah. Extraordinary! The LINEAGE OF GOD

80. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

FALSE. This is only a pious statement. No facts given. Simply personal opinion.

90. The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies.

FALSE. Every prophecy of the Biblical record can be verified and proven.

91. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it with Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The sign given by Isaiah to King Ahaz was meant to assure him that his enemies King Rezin and King Remaliah would be defeated. The prophecy was fulfilled in the very next chapter. Yet Matthew 1 not only misinterprets the word for "maiden" as "virgin," but claims that this already-fulfilled prophecy is fulfilled by the virgin birth of Jesus!

Matthew Henry commentary: Isaiah, chapter 7
There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them. I think we stand assured that truth has been revealed. False doctrine comes from half truths and false premises. Indeed, it does take not much to learn, if one takes the effort. Matthew Henry
92. The Bible is imperfect.

FALSE. As proved throughout this essay!

93. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged "word of god". Many have been found.

None have been presented, as of yet!

94. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

Agree!

95. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack.

TRUE.

The Critic says: You may choose to serve an impossible "god". I will choose reality".

My response is: You have not provided anything which objectively is considered, fact. Therefore, your reality is only a false image of what appears to be true, only to you. Which you have described as, a paradoxical riddle, the opposite of what is considered, reality!...

Reality All of your experiences that determine how things appear to you; The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence. That which exists objectively and in fact.

2Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.



Copyright Wendell Leahy
published by Suite101.com


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